|
|
Post by TigerSnake on Dec 24, 2005 17:53:37 GMT -5
sorry I am without my HBP, can you give me a quote to show where it says you must have a wand to do nonverbal spells thanks er...I don't think there is a quote that says that! I don't believe you need your wand for non-verbal spells. I could be wrong! I'll keep an eye out! Yes, but don’t you need a wand to do any magic? That’s why you would need one to do non-verbal spells; they’re not called “non-wand” spells or something. And yes I know, Harry released that snake from its cage without a wand but that was in a moment when Harry lost control and was pretty angry. TigerSnake....I finally took the time to read your three page post...sorry been way too busy lately. Great job on your analysis of all the different possible scenarios in the tower. I haven't quite put all of my own thoughts together yet about it. LOL. Well I’m glad you read it and liked it. I, for one, believe that Dumbledore and Severus had a plan from the get go, and that Dumbledore was pleading for Severus to Kill him (like they had planned). I'm sure there is much more to it than that. Here's one idea:Perhaps he was saying "Severus please...do it now...the 'life/death' elixir is beginning to wear off" (hehehe)!  ! Boy, do I hope there was a plan because it’s not fair if Dumbledore was taken by surprised! Well, it seems we can rule out the possibility of DD saying I want to live to be 200! Now let's start eliminating some more! ;D |
|
|
|
Post by TigerSnake on Jan 2, 2006 0:00:16 GMT -5
I’m sure some have realized but I’ll point it out anyway… Okay, I think I’ve found more evidence that supports there was a plan between Snape and Dumbledore, and here it is… Okay, when the DEs invaded Hogwarts, it was obvious that Snape was not suppose to know about it because he was in his office, not knowing what was happening on the opposite side of the school and many floors above. Had he known, he would’ve helped his fellow DEs. Why? Because he or Draco was going to kill DD that night, so there was no need pretending any more. The thing is that he isn’t on the DEs’s side, he didn’t know of the invasion; he was waiting for DD to tell him to do the nasty deed for Draco. That’s why he ran upstairs: because Draco was probably going to kill DD and that wasn’t his (DD's) plan. Oh an why didn’t Snape kill Flitwick? Huh? I don’t understand why that HUGE clue of Snape NOT killing Flitwick hasn’t slapped a Snape hater's face or at least be some evidence that gives Snape the benefit of a doubt. If Snape is truly evil, and he was just told that DEs have invaded, and he was on his way to kill DD because he really hates him, then why not kill the little wizard? Why didn't he stun Hermione and Luna, or killed them? They, at the time, didn’t suspect him of anything awful like the thing he did, so why not get rid of the annoying little know-it-all Miss Granger and the weird looking Miss Lovegood? Because Snape is good!! (or so I hope  ) Well that's what I wanted to say in this New Year.  |
|
|
|
Post by winky22 on Jan 2, 2006 9:43:55 GMT -5
Yeah he could have killed Flitwick if he wanted to but he wouldn't because he is not evil, Snape is good!
|
|
|
|
Post by EmmyMik on Jan 3, 2006 19:58:32 GMT -5
It's been awhile since I've ready HBP (I'm working my way to it again. Gotta read all of the other books first, though), but I agree. Hardcore Death Eaters don't strike me as the kind who spare the innocent who get in the way. Why should Snape be any different?
|
|
|
|
Post by winky22 on Jan 6, 2006 17:19:19 GMT -5
Yeah why should he! he could have killed Harry on the spot if he wanted to or even tourtured him a bit but no he wouldn't.
|
|
|
|
Post by olwen on Jan 6, 2006 19:52:32 GMT -5
Fascinating scenarios, TigerSnake!
From the very beginning, I thought there was something fishy in the scene on the tower. I thought it would be completely out of character for Dumbledore to plead for his life. It always seemed odd to me that Dumbledore, the greatest wizard of his age, even weakened by the cave potion was not able to perform an *accio wand* or was in a position to be outsmarted by a teenage wizard like Draco. It also seemed odd that he didn't summon Fawkes to help him, perhaps because he knew Draco and Snape would die.
It seemed to me that Dumbledore was patiently waiting for events to unfold. He even told Draco that it was his (DD's) mercy that mattered. I think Snape told him about the unbreakable vow but Snape wasn't aware of what the last part entailed because he bluffed his way through Narcissa and Bella's visit. When Draco and Dumbledore met in the tower, the final part of the puzzle was put together. Dumbledore froze Harry for Harry's own protection and also so that he would not intefere in something he wouldn't understand. When the DE's and the werewolf arrived, there was only one option left that would save Draco, Snape and Harry: either killing Dumbledore or faking his death.
The hatred and revulsion in Snape's face parallels exactly the look on Harry's face when he fed DD the potion after DD got tough and ordered him to do it. As you say, that scene Hagrid overheard seems to parallel this. Snape had no choice but to perform what may or may not have been a killing AK, but I think there is a loophole in that it isn't murder if someone willingly lays down his life to protect others which is what DD seems to have done. There is aslo the possibility that DD was at the point of death from the green potion when Snape arrived and he pled with Snape to do what was necessary to protect himself and the boys. DD has a peaceful appearance on his face when his body is found in contrast to others who looked surprised when they were AK'd. Maybe he was ready, maybe his is not dead, I don't know, but I think Snape lifted DD's body over the tower to prevent the werewolf from savaging it as he had threatened.
I agree with you and allegro that the the biggest clues as to Snape's loyalties also came from the fact that he didn't harm Flitwick, Hermione, Luna any other the Order members or Harry and he had ample opportunity. Pettigrew, in contrast, had no problem killing Cedric Diggory without any thought or remorse, and Barty Crouch Jr killed his own father with no remorse as well. That's waht DE's do, and Snape did not do that. Finally, he could have stunned Harry and taken him by the hair to LV, but he didn't. And we really don't know where Snape disapparated to. I'm hoping it was to a safe place where he could talk sense into Draco and work agains LV in secret.
Your scenario's are really fascinating, and thought-provoking. Thank you for sharing them!
|
|
|
|
Post by TigerSnake on Jan 6, 2006 20:32:43 GMT -5
I think Snape told him about the unbreakable vow but Snape wasn't aware of what the last part entailed because he bluffed his way through Narcissa and Bella's visit. When Draco and Dumbledore met in the tower, the final part of the puzzle was put together. But DD knew that Draco was behind the attempts on his life, unless DD lied to Draco at the tower.  Dumbledore froze Harry for Harry's own protection and also so that he would not intefere in something he wouldn't understand. Bravo! Couldn't had said it better myself! Many people wondered how could DD allow Harry to witness his own death, but he had no choice! Harry needed to be frozen. There is aslo the possibility that DD was at the point of death from the green potion when Snape arrived and he pled with Snape to do what was necessary to protect himself and the boys. DD has a peaceful appearance on his face when his body is found in contrast to others who looked surprised when they were AK'd. Maybe he was ready, maybe his is not dead, I don't know, but I think Snape lifted DD's body over the tower to prevent the werewolf from savaging it as he had threatened. Very ture. I always thought that DD was going to die at least within the next week because of the potion (which I call posion). And yes, he did have a peaceful look on his face, which is weird. Everyone else who's been killed with the AK curse had a look of surprise or something, but DD seemed ready as you said. Pettigrew, in contrast, had no problem killing Cedric Diggory without any thought or remorse, and Barty Crouch Jr killed his own father with no remorse as well. That's waht DE's do, and Snape did not do that. Finally, he could have stunned Harry and taken him by the hair to LV, but he didn't. Again, totally correct. Snape seemed angry and sad and everything the last time we saw him. And after the coward thing, he could've proven Harry he (Snape) wasn't a coward by stunning Harry and taking him away; that'll show the little brat. But he didn't. Your scenario's are really fascinating, and thought-provoking. Thank you for sharing them! Thank you so much! Your words mean a lot! ;D Wow. I would be as shocked as when I read Snape kill DD if Snape turns out to be a truly evil person.    |
|
|
|
Post by olwen on Jan 6, 2006 20:44:41 GMT -5
TigerSnake - I'm not sure how to quote prior posts in a reply yet but you are right about DD knowing about Draco *blushes*. How could I forget that and even that point to Snape being in DD's confidence because who else could have told DD?
I'm not even going to think about Snape turning out to be evil. I would be beyond shocked !
Nope, we've got to keep positive thoughts and send out vibes to JKR ****Snape is reeeeeallly gooood.....Snape is reeeeealllly goood**** There, that'll do it!
|
|
|
|
Post by hermione13snape on Feb 4, 2006 15:54:09 GMT -5
The Severus Please bit means to me. Severus please do what's right in your heart to do, this is your choice! Kill me or die yourself.
Yes I am a Snape Lover, but I am not delusional about him. I don't buy the idea that Dumbledore pleaded to die, nor do I believe there was a plan in place. I believe that Snape made the easy choice and killed Dumbledore, but immediately understood what he did, hence the pain matching the howling dog in the hut, he knew he basically did a wrong thing, and I think that the next book will be Snape doing all he can to correct that mistake, and perhaps dying trying to save someone he is supposed to hate, ie one of the trio, my personal favourite is Hermione.
And TigerSnake I gave you a Karma Point to for this wonderful discussion point.
Just to reiterate, I Am A Snape Lover!
|
|
|
|
Post by TigerSnake on Feb 4, 2006 17:03:31 GMT -5
Thank you hermione13snape! For the karma and for stating your opinion.  I like the thought of him saving Hermione, just I wouldn't want to see him go. ::tear:: (Unless he deserves it. ) And I'm a Snape Lover too! |
|
waffl3ookiez
Full Member
What do I do to ease the pain? Everybody sees the mask I put on!
Posts: 157
|
Post by waffl3ookiez on Dec 30, 2006 6:07:35 GMT -5
er...I don't think there is a quote that says that! I don't believe you need your wand for non-verbal spells. I could be wrong! I'll keep an eye out! Yes, but don’t you need a wand to do any magic? That’s why you would need one to do non-verbal spells; they’re not called “non-wand” spells or something. And yes I know, Harry released that snake from its cage without a wand but that was in a moment when Harry lost control and was pretty angry. LOL. Well I’m glad you read it and liked it. I, for one, believe that Dumbledore and Severus had a plan from the get go, and that Dumbledore was pleading for Severus to Kill him (like they had planned). I'm sure there is much more to it than that. Here's one idea:Perhaps he was saying "Severus please...do it now...the 'life/death' elixir is beginning to wear off" (hehehe)! ! Boy, do I hope there was a plan because it’s not fair if Dumbledore was taken by surprised! Well, it seems we can rule out the possibility of DD saying I want to live to be 200! Now let's start eliminating some more! ;D You can do non verbal spells with or without a wand. Though any magic without the use of a wand is called... shock horror, "Wandless Magic" you in theory do NOT need a wand to do any magic, but since some people aren't talented they need a wand to charge the magic into something and gathering it from the person,instead of surroundings. Umm... you CAN do non-verbal spells without a wand, you can do any magic without a wand (if you are skilled enough) But then again you CAN do non-verbal spells with a wand, like any other magic with a wand too, the non werbal simply means it is not spoken or said aloud. However wandless means just that, without a wand, doesn't imply you have to say or not say the incantation, just means that you don't need to use a wand to do it...hope that clears some things up for a few of you, if not I'm sorry for confusing you more if I did,which I believe I have. Thanks for listening to my rambling, I do hope it helps... |
|
|
|
Post by sunshinedaydream80 on Jan 19, 2007 13:00:47 GMT -5
Forgive me for being bulletin-board illiterate ;D Posted by olwen on Jan 6, 2006, 6:52pm: I agree with you and allegro that the the biggest clues as to Snape's loyalties also came from the fact that he didn't harm Flitwick, Hermione, Luna any other the Order members or Harry and he had ample opportunity. Pettigrew, in contrast, had no problem killing Cedric Diggory without any thought or remorse, and Barty Crouch Jr killed his own father with no remorse as well. That's waht DE's do, and Snape did not do that. Finally, he could have stunned Harry and taken him by the hair to LV, but he didn't. And we really don't know where Snape disapparated to. I'm hoping it was to a safe place where he could talk sense into Draco and work agains LV in secret. I've always held the notion that DD was pleading for Snape to kill him, but only as to save himself, what with Harry and him being more valuable in the war. (knowing fully about the vow) What I never got, though, was how SS would be of ANY use if the whole Order wanted to murder him themselves! Also, I realized that if SS was a true Slytherin, all these actions were self-serving. eg. He made the vow b/c he was trapped in a corner. That post, Olwen, made me realize that SS could've killed all those innocent people, but he didn't. He also could've took Harry right then and there. An earlier post by someone...sorry. I got too lazy to look it up ....says that Snape had to have known that Harry was with DD, since he wasn't downstairs in the thick of things with all his friends. Which, to me anyway, shows that SS might just redeem himself in book 7! But, I do believe DD to be dead, only because he looked forward to it (Philosopher's Stone), and because of the peaceful look he had on his face. You all have brought up so many wonderful points...I wish I could give out karma points to all of you, but then I would be on all day!! ;D Oh yeah, and one more thing. I don't believe that a GREAT wizard like DD would need a wand to do magic. Okay, that's enough for me now;) I apologize if my thoughts seem to run together..I make sense to me, anyway lol |
|
waffl3ookiez
Full Member
What do I do to ease the pain? Everybody sees the mask I put on!
Posts: 157
|
Post by waffl3ookiez on Jan 26, 2007 5:03:36 GMT -5
sunshinedaydream80 no need to forgive you or to feel sorry for your message board use. Good wizards and I mean that as in charm/spell/wand work "good" wizards can use magic without a wand which is called wandless magic. I think we are introduced to it in the third book, or maybe the second. Anyway, thank you for making wonderful points, or going over other people's points. I'm sure things will be told for us by J.K soon enough, oh and yes you made sense to me sunshine.
|
|
!
)
