angelique
Junior Member
My cat Ron...
Posts: 61
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Post by angelique on Aug 20, 2005 9:06:24 GMT -5
Well, I was devastated as well when I learned Snape was killing Dumbledore in HBP (yup, I read the spoilers before reading the book, bad, baaad me)... Anyway, if Snape turns out to have been working for Voldemort for all these years, I wouldn't cope well with it, it would be too easy. I don't say he is good, but I think he is still loyal to the order. When he made the unbreakable vow, I think he didn't know what the task was. At slughorn's party, Harry thinks he saw snape looking at Malfoy with fear... wasn't it the exact moment snape realized what he got into. And then after that, he has that "discussion" with AD in the forest... Too many coincidences I say. I think Dumbledore was dying anyway (cause of the ring) and he just want his dead to be useful, useful in the sense that Malfoy and his family woudn't be killed. Asking Snape to kill him was just a way to prevent Draco to become a murderer... Also, snape tells Narcissa : You know, AS WELL AS I DO, Narcissa, that the Dark Lord does not forgive easily" Big big hint to why Dumbledore trusts Snape, isn't it? What happened to him to make him change sides (or not LOL) There is still so much about snape to be known... I'm already dying to read book seven
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Post by mugglemichelle on Aug 20, 2005 12:23:12 GMT -5
*applause* Angelique (and welcome, incidentally, to our boards!) I agree with your arguements. I really should read HBP again, and study the language JKR uses. Your quote from Snape to Narcissa is a good example to back our "Snape is good" theory. I always believed that Snape had told Dumbly he had entered the unbreakable vow and Dumbly knew what he'd have to do. Defeat of Voldemort was probably Dumble's only priority and his death was just his 'next big adventure'
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angelique
Junior Member
My cat Ron...
Posts: 61
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Post by angelique on Aug 20, 2005 13:19:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the welcoming Michelle, and for the applause too (I never get any applause... lol) There are lots of other clues that could tell us that Snape is still loyal to Dumbledore ... E.G. Phines Nigellus answer "I should think not" when Harry asks Dumbledore if he hasn't changed his mind about Snape... Does it mean Phineas knows something about Severus' loyalties??? As for what would be the utility of Snape killing Dumbledore : 1) Draco wouldn't become a murderer (because with all the Deatheaters around him, he would have had to kill him, right??? 2) Snape will be close to Voldemort, very close (maybe even closer than Bellatrix or Malfoy once were)... He would maybe then be able to ... I don't know, be close to Nagini, maybe he would even be able to kill her... ;D 3) The trio will have to do their own research on Snape, and will certainly discover why dumbledore trusted him so much. I mean, dumbledore never told Harry exactly why, but because it wasn't his right to do it... I certainly hope Draco and snape will redeem themselves, by dying as heroes (because they will die, right??? Not that I want to, but, do they really have a future?)
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Post by EmmyMik on Aug 20, 2005 17:58:31 GMT -5
Great theory, angelique.
I also believe that Dumbledore knew he was dying. I feel that once he learned of Draco's mission and the Unbreakable Vow, he needed Snape's promise to go through with it. If Draco wasn't able to complete his mission, then the Order would be down two members (Snape would die, as would Dumbledore). Since Snape killed Dumbledore, the Order is seemingly down 2 members, however Snape could very well still be on the side of the Order and be even closer to Voldemort.
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Post by winky22 on Aug 21, 2005 2:49:53 GMT -5
Great theory, angelique. I also believe that Dumbledore knew he was dying. I feel that once he learned of Draco's mission and the Unbreakable Vow, he needed Snape's promise to go through with it. If Draco wasn't able to complete his mission, then the Order would be down two members (Snape would die, as would Dumbledore). Since Snape killed Dumbledore, the Order is seemingly down 2 members, however Snape could very well still be on the side of the Order and be even closer to Voldemort. Yeah I think that too, Great Theory Angelique/EmmyMik. What are we thinking about someone else knowing about this? If he is helping the order he needs to be giving his information to somebody! I suppose there is always the opportunity for him to be at the final Battle to help Harry un-known to Voldie. Maybe thats just it, DD knows it's going to happen maybe he thinks that Harry has more of a chance with Snape being there. Hmmm. What do you guys think? Does someone else know of the plan?
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angelique
Junior Member
My cat Ron...
Posts: 61
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Post by angelique on Aug 21, 2005 2:58:25 GMT -5
Well, if I knew about the plan, I would tell you right away... ;D Anyway, I think Fawkes could be very important to snape, if he is still working for the orders... We assumed in the sixth book that Fawkes is dead, but can a Phoenix really die, even is his owner did? Didn't Harry think he heard Phoenix voice at the funerals...? So my guess is that Fawkes isn't dead, that he will hep Snape to fulfill his task (whatever it is) and to prove the Order he is still working for them! I also think Draco will be punished but Narcissa will sacrifice herself (willingly or not, because she is maybe a real badie, but she seems to care deeply for her son, doesn't she). Snape wouldn't however forget about his vow (even if it isn't an unbreakable anymore, with Narcissa dead) and Draco will rely on the last person who cares for him... by helping snape. Wow, isn't it more a scenario for a fanfic??? LOL ;D
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Post by winky22 on Aug 21, 2005 3:07:31 GMT -5
Well, if I knew about the plan, I would tell you right away... ;D Anyway, I think Fawkes could be very important to snape, if he is still working for the orders... We assumed in the sixth book that Fawkes is dead, but can a Phoenix really die, even is his owner did? Didn't Harry think he heard Phoenix voice at the funerals...? So my guess is that Fawkes isn't dead, that he will hep Snape to fulfill his task (whatever it is) and to prove the Order he is still working for them! I also think Draco will be punished but Narcissa will sacrifice herself (willingly or not, because she is maybe a real badie, but she seems to care deeply for her son, doesn't she). Snape wouldn't however forget about his vow (even if it isn't an unbreakable anymore, with Narcissa dead) and Draco will rely on the last person who cares for him... by helping snape. Wow, isn't it more a scenario for a fanfic??? LOL ;D I like the idea of Fawkes helping Snape maybe Fawkes is now Snape's because DD wanted him to have him. I'm not sure about Draco/Nacissa, I'm unsure that we will see them in the last book.
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Post by EmmyMik on Aug 21, 2005 11:11:01 GMT -5
I like the idea about Fawkes as well.
I still feel that Dumbledore's pensive will come in handy. If Dumbledore told Snape to go through with the plan, then that memory should be stored somewhere...
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Post by winky22 on Aug 25, 2005 1:47:38 GMT -5
I like the idea about Fawkes as well. I still feel that Dumbledore's pensive will come in handy. If Dumbledore told Snape to go through with the plan, then that memory should be stored somewhere... Ohhhhhh, i like that idea! That would be handy then he'd know to trust him but then again would Harry still trust him after seeing that? He is pretty stubbon.
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slythy
New Member
Got your towel?
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Post by slythy on Aug 25, 2005 14:20:50 GMT -5
Angelique, nice idea about Fawkes!
Was it ever stated that Fawkes died? I got the impression he was still flapping around somewhere. He's a phoenix, can phoenixes die?
Or they could just ask Dumbledore's portrait in his office! I was screaming at them to wake him up at the end of HBP and clarify what had happened, for my sanity's sake...
Harry's never trusted Snape before. I doubt he'd trust him fully even if he had the facts in black and white in front of him.
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angelique
Junior Member
My cat Ron...
Posts: 61
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Post by angelique on Aug 25, 2005 14:28:10 GMT -5
Well, I've got to read the book again but I think so... At least, that's what somebody said in a forum (And we were all wondering if maybe a phoenix would die with his owner)... I like the idea of the pensieve and the painting... But if Snape is still loyal (come on JK, give us some hints please!!!), I think the first one who will discover this will be Hermione, isn't she the brightest after all? And no, I'm not a S/Hr shipper, it's a children book after all, but I still like to read such fanfics sometimes... ;D
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slythy
New Member
Got your towel?
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Post by slythy on Aug 25, 2005 14:39:16 GMT -5
Hermione would probably be the one who would be most reasonable about Snape being innocent, should such a situation arise. Harry and Ron would be all for cursing him into next week, but Hermione might stop and talk... I'm still holding out hope for Snape Interesting theory about the phoenix dying with its owner...
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Post by ringo on Aug 26, 2005 15:19:30 GMT -5
I have now read and re-read the HBP five times,and I still keep coming up with the same conclusion,Snape is still on the good side..It really is amazing how much you miss when you only read it a couple of times,and now I have managed to get more info in my head and really do beleive in our Snape...It would honestly devaste me if JK really did make Snape a murderer,I just dont think that it would work out that well,to easy really,I like to think that JK likes her readers to think about the books,and she sure as hell got me thinking.. I cant help feeling that if someone like Albus trusted Snape so much,and he did this from book one,then something strong was between the two of them,Im sure we will all find out in book 7.. If Albus has made a mistake(which I do not think he did)then so be it,but I just cant help but stay true to our Severus,just like Albus did....
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Post by billywiggy on Aug 26, 2005 16:07:57 GMT -5
I have now read and re-read the HBP five times,and I still keep coming up with the same conclusion,Snape is still on the good side..It really is amazing how much you miss when you only read it a couple of times,and now I have managed to get more info in my head and really do beleive in our Snape...It would honestly devaste me if JK really did make Snape a murderer,I just dont think that it would work out that well,to easy really,I like to think that JK likes her readers to think about the books,and she sure as hell got me thinking.. I cant help feeling that if someone like Albus trusted Snape so much,and he did this from book one,then something strong was between the two of them,Im sure we will all find out in book 7.. If Albus has made a mistake(which I do not think he did)then so be it,but I just cant help but stay true to our Severus,just like Albus did.... I totally agree! I think JKR wants us to doubt Snape. She wants to keep everyone guessing . . . because when she reveals he's always been on the 'good' side in Book 7 - she wants it to have impact. Personally, I think that's why she's always saying she's dismayed that people like Snape's character. She sooo wanted to pull one over on us - but we saw through her! ;D
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actingangie
Full Member
Potterpuff Snape as Metatron ^_^
Posts: 155
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Post by actingangie on Aug 26, 2005 20:47:27 GMT -5
Agreed, gals. I just get the sense (or is it just hopeful thinking?) that Snape isn't evil. And I've trusted Dumbledore (you know what I mean) enough to hope that he knew what he had undeniable proof that Severus was truly good. I keep a hope for a heroic moment from him in the final installment. Two long years!!
What do all of you think about Harry's comment that he's not going back to school? I'm inclined to think it was just one of those things you say, like "I'm going to kill him", but usually when one says that sort of thing, one doesn't follow through with it. Unless, of course, your're Voldemort. In other words, I think Harry will return to school.
And it would be simply tragic if we were to lose Alan before HP and the HBP, wouldn't it? Such character development to play with here. This has become my current favorite of the series.
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Post by winky22 on Aug 27, 2005 2:06:40 GMT -5
I was just thinking and something popped in my head. Dumbledore says love is the greatest power of all, he must have seen love conquer a few times so what about this.
Severus Snape a deeply confused boy always been into the dark arts, powerful magic that he would love to study further. Enemies: James Potter and Sirius Black. Love: Fell for a girl called Lily Potter who treated him like a real friend and often went round with Lily and helped he with her weakness, Potions.
She had always said that she hated James and Severus loved that because he hated him too. One day he finds out that Lily actually did like James and felt like she had betrayed him. Thus cutting of all contact with Lily but the love hurt and was still there, inside him brewing.
He Started working for Voldie because it was there nearest thing he wanted to do (the dark arts) and a first was proud of his choice and obeyed his master.
Then one day he over hears a prophecy about his master but only gets half of it. he must tell his master though so he runs to tell him, not knowing that the family that he would choose would be the Potters.
When he finds out that he is part responsible for the situation and has put the only person that cared for him and the only person he had ever loved life at risk he becomes angry and sad and then realizes that what he is doing is wrong.
The pain inside him unbearable, Love conquers, like DD says, Snape turns to the good side hoping he may stop Voldie from killing them but in sadness he couldn't prevent Voldie from fulfilling the Prophecy. With the dark lord gone he can stay by dumbledore side and plan for what to do when he returns to a body, when he becomes powerful again.
Love had changed him, love turn him good thus meaning love is the greatest power of all
What do you all think?
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angelique
Junior Member
My cat Ron...
Posts: 61
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Post by angelique on Sept 1, 2005 14:52:39 GMT -5
On a different level, I just rererererereread (lol) chapter two (my favorite so far) and did anyone else noticed how Snape was nice to Narcissa... I'm not talking about lovers, not at all, but about "friends". I mean, Narcissa (Cissy ) takes great risks in going to Snape, so she trusts him, right... In another forum, people said that it was impossible that Snape had had a family... Thanks to this chapter, I know think the contrary... Snape CAN be nice... So it's possible that he HAD a family... Don't think the family would still be alive though... More of that (It's becoming very far fetched here, but I kinda like that LOL), Snape could have had a son. Just think about it... Son would have been killed because of Snape not being able to tell VD the whole prophecy... Could be another reason why snape HATES Harry. Okey, I'm going too far here, maybe it's the fever! ;D
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Post by ringo on Sept 2, 2005 13:43:03 GMT -5
;)Hey,I think that Snape could have had a son,and I do belive that he had some kind of family,dont know what,but why not???I mean,the man,can show his nice side now and again and I think that when we all read book 7,I feel we will all be a little surprised... I cant help it though,I feel that Harry is a silly little school boy who still cant see the wood through the trees,I think that our Hermoine will sort it out though,she is a smart girl,but I fear it will be too late for our Snape....I hope,and I mean really hope,that if he is to die,which I think he will,then,I hope it is a heroic one,more of a bang,rather than a whimper...And I really hope that JK does not make Snape a bad guy,it just would not ring true to me,it would be just to damned easy to work out.....Hope this makes sense,I have had a lousy day,and cant put two words together today...
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Post by Stinkyfart on Sept 4, 2005 22:29:06 GMT -5
After reading the part where Snape kills DD, I was really angry and though "You S.O.B, how dare you". Then after reading parts of HBP again, I believe that Snape was also under his own "Unbreakable Vow" with DD as well as Narcissa Malfoy. The following is evidence of this:
1. In "Elf Tales", Hagrid recalls an argument he over-hears between DD and Snape. He gets that all too familiar "ooops I did it again. I should NOT have said that" look on his face. Hagird also admitted he shouldn't have been there. He tells Harry that Snape saying something to the effect of "I want out". Snape sounded "overwhelmed". DD told Severus that he agreed to do it and had to follow through with his promise.
2. In "The Cave" when Harry is forcing DD to drink the potion his face is etched with Hate and Revulsion. Harry hates himself for having to put DD through hell. In a sense he also made a "Vow" to do EXACTLY as DD said. Even if it means leaving DD behind to save his own skin. In this chapter we see DD re-living a horrible memory. This I believe maybe Snape's memory of the night James and Lily died. As a former Death Eater, I do believe that he did feed Voldemort information about the Potter Family, including Harry. Part of his reason, I believe is to exact revenge on James for bullying him as a Teenager. He can't even fathom in his worst nightmare what Voldemort has in mind. I do believe that he was there the night they died, but something happened that scared the heck out of him. THIS is when he may have left LV and the Death Eaters. He goes to Hogwarts where he knows he will be safe as long as DD is alive. When he arrives there, DD realizes how much trouble Snape is in. This may have also been where DD might have made Snape agree to an "Unbreakable Vow". He knows that Harry is going to become a student at Hogwarts and Voldemort will hunt him down and possibly kill him. So in order to get a job and protection @ Hogwarts, Snape must promise to protect Harry. Snape agrees, though I believe it is save his own skin.
3. 16 years later, Draco Malfoy becomes a Death Eater. In Chaper 2 it seems obvious Snape is Spying for LV. He gives very clear evidence and reasons for not showing his support for LV. He tells Narcissa that Lucius Malfoy is no longer LV's Pet--he is. He also tells her LV is angry @ Lucius for NOT getting the Prophecy regarding Harry. He is using Draco as vengence on Lucius. In short LV feels "so what if the kid dies in the process". Narcissa becomes very hysterical and pleads with Severus to make the "Unbreakable Vow" with her. His hand twitches when Narcissa asks him to carry out the deed (kill DD) if Draco fails.
4. We then read where Snape kills DD. This is from Harry's point-of-view. He hates Snape with a passion. If you re-read this part of Chapter 28, you will see Snape's face is etched with "Hate and Revulsion". The same words Rowling used in "The Cave" in regards to Harry. Until I read other wise, I believe this is Snape's inward hate and loathing for himself. Just as Harry hated himself in the cave. We also see DD pleading "Severus....Please". He is speaking in a voice which Harry has never heard before. After reading it several times, I believe that DD is pleading with Severus to kill him. By killing DD, Snape has save Harry's life and Dracos life as well as his own.
4. When Harry is chasing Snape, Hagrid's Hut goes up in flames. Harry is also hit by the cruciatis curse, but Snape yells "NO" and stops the curse. He once again saves Harry from a painfull death. It was one of the other Death Eaters who uses this curse to torture Harry. Snape stops them and tells them Harry belongs to the Dark Lord. He could have easily killed Harry, but he doesn't. On one hand I do believe that Snape may have been mocking Harry's attempts at trying to kill him. But once again, we see Snape giving out hints that Harry MUST learn to cool his jets and concentrate.
I can't wait to read the final book. It will be really interesting to see where J.K. Rowling takes her Characters. It will be really interesting to see what she does with Snape.
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Post by Stinkyfart on Sept 4, 2005 23:37:07 GMT -5
I just want Snape and Harry to be friends. I doubt this will ever happen. Even if we learn that Snape is a loyal member to the OOTP. There has been too much bad blood between Harry and Snape for them to be true friends. Harry has never given Snape the benefit of the doubt, even when he saved his life in P.S. In POA, movie version, Snape protects the kids from Lupin's Werewolf. He even says "There you are, Potter!!" with a sigh of relief. Snape realizes the kids are in grave danger and protects them. Part of the reason is because he is a Teacher and they are to put their lives at stake when necessary.
2. He doesn't want to lose his job @ Hogwarts and become an easy target for LV.
3. The third reason is he is re-living the day Lupin and Black tricked him into meeting Face-to-face with a fully grown Werewolf. Harry's father did save him from the Werewolf. He realizes the terror the kids are terrified and defenseless. Even though he treats them like crap in class, he cannot bear watching them being terrified like he was.
Remember it WAS James Potter--another peer who saved him, NOT an adult/Professor. So he sees the kids cowering and obviously defenseless and terrified. He is the only one there who can protect them. By sheilding them from the Werewolf, he is also protecting the Child within him.
I'm really tired and I'm starting to nod off and need to go to bed. Will write more about this later.
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